All Aussie Accounting Adventures - Tech Edition
It’s time to hit the road with Amy + Will on their ‘most bodacious’ all Aussie accounting TECH adventures! Run your own accounting firm? Maybe thinking of starting one? Want to get the best advice on what tech to use, as well as how to implement it well? Well, Amy & Will are tapping into their extensive knowledge in the space to give you ALL the tips & tricks to fast-track your technology skillset. So pour a bevvy of choice and join them around the accounting campfire for a good ole’ chat. And remember, be excellent to each other, accounting community humans, and party on, dudes!
All Aussie Accounting Adventures - Tech Edition
What If Your Firm’s Biggest Risk Isn’t Tech?
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You can automate the ledger. You cannot automate Dave or Davina. Firms pour months into systems, apps and AI, then get completely blindsided by the messiest variable in the practice, the humans.
In this episode, Amy and Will sit down for an honest chat about leadership, culture, and the moments that quietly decide whether a team thrives or burns out in the background while everyone pretends things are fine. If you have ever thought "surely there is a better way to manage people", good news, you are not failing. You are just in the messy middle of building something that lasts.
They unpack what people first actually looks like once you stop putting it on the website. Clear expectations, mutual respect, and leaders going first on trust rather than waiting for the team to earn it. There is a proper go at accountability without ego, including how to open a courageous conversation that invites a bit of self reflection instead of a defensive scramble. Then into remote and flexible work in Aussie firms, protecting focus time, keeping the human bit alive, and how on earth you coach someone who is not sitting within earshot.
From there it is resourcing and growth. Onshore outsourcing, the wildly overlooked pool of interstate and part time talent, and why accountants in their twilight years might be the capacity superpower nobody is bidding on. They finish with the onboarding reality check most owners underestimate by about a factor of ten, plus the HR rhythms and tools that keep feedback consistent, because it is the tech edition after all.
Pour a bevvy of choice, pull up a log at the accounting campfire, and be excellent to your people. If it hit home, subscribe, send it to an accounting mate, and leave a review so more firm owners can build teams worth staying at.
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MUSIC
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PRODUCTION
Dav...
Why People Matter More Than Tech
SPEAKER_07Hey Will.
SPEAKER_01Hello, Amy. I was listening to one of our episodes. Oh gosh. It was difficult for me to hear my own voice, obviously. Um but we do the hello, Amy, hello Will, the same all the time. Yeah, was that different then that?
SPEAKER_02No, it's the same.
SPEAKER_01I don't know where it came from, but why not the same, but it was the same.
SPEAKER_02All right, great. Um any other way. Okay. That's good, Amy. How's it going? I'm great, thanks, Will. How are you doing? Yeah, really good. Chipper. Chipper.
SPEAKER_07Chipper. That's that's exciting. Okay, um, let's not lose all of our listeners in the first 30 seconds of this episode. Straight away. And let's talk about well, it's got somewhat poignant though. Uh, today's episode, we are talking about people. Which interestingly enough comes down to communication and the way that you do communicate with people. However, we are more so referring to the people side of a business.
SPEAKER_01Um which arguably is the most important part of the business. I know this is the tech podcast, but I mean, the people side is a thousand gazillion times more important than anything we could talk about from a tech perspective, in my humble opinion.
SPEAKER_07I totally I totally agree with you. I yes, if I didn't have human beings and people in my world supporting uh all of the great work that Clarity Street does for the accounting industry, I mean I'm only one human. I'm okay, but collectively with all of the other people in my world, we do some pretty damn good stuff, and I'm not even just talking about at Clarity Street, I'm talking about in the industry all of the connections that I have. Um we are seguing into not the correct topic today, but it's really important to discuss people.
SPEAKER_01I agree. Let's do it. Let's do it.
No Perfect System For Managing People
SPEAKER_07Okay. Where do you want to start?
SPEAKER_01I just can we just acknowledge that I don't think anyone's ever got this right across the board consistently. There is no like perfect system for how to manage, develop, nurture, support people. Yep. Not just in the accounting industry, but in general. We are such complex human beings, and throughout my career, I've got to tell you that when I was less experienced, I used to have very high opinions on how poorly managed I felt like I was and how things should be so much better. And as I've gotten a little bit more experienced, I come to appreciate just how damn hard it is to uh get the balance right across multiple people and larger teams, even small teams. It's just so hard. And uh I think talking about it and finding out what's working for some people doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna work for everyone, but I think just having the conversation and people sharing what is working, what's not working, always helps others inform what they want to do with their strategy.
SPEAKER_07I agree, transparency is the key in relation to this one. I mean, I think that um I have a saying which are people are the worst kind of people, but I will counter that by saying that people are the best kind of people. When they're good, when we are good, we are all freaking amazing. But when we are crap, my goodness, as human beings, individually, collectively, whatever, we're not great.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I um I agree. I I had the opportunity of doing like a leadership coaching session once upon a time with one of the performance coaches for the All Blacks. So very interesting session. And I remember like he was just going around the room and just talking about different people's motivations and how to get the most out of teams and what his observations were. And uh one of his comments was like sometimes the people with the most potential to contribute to the most to a team can play absolutely out of their skin, but unless you find a way to unlock that in them, they might never actually be able to deliver that. Um, and like sometimes the the environment, the the balance between colleagues, team members, like the the locker room plays such an important role in how people are able to show up and bring the best version of themselves. And as a default position, people just don't bring the best selves as a default position. Everyone hedges, no one leans straight in and gives their all. It's something that just has to get earned, and the environment that you create has a huge role to play in uh how quickly that can happen or if it even happens at all.
SPEAKER_07I agree, but also I would, you know, I do think that there is a very big difference between people's care level and care factor aspects based on what your position is within a company and an organization. I I'm generalizing, but typically those who don't necessarily feel like they need to give their all or bring their A game, etc. Generally speaking, are employees, those who don't necessarily have uh financial skin in the game. Again, I'm generalising. I'm generalizing. Yeah, because not not there are definitely employees that do bring their freaking A game 24-7. So forgive me if that's I'm not trying to say that that's a blanket rule, but I would say that most business owners, I think, are probably they have a more vested interest, generally speaking, which is why they typically bring their A game every day.
SPEAKER_01In some things, um like I think it's fair to say that no one's ever gonna care as much about your business as what you are. Sure. But that I don't think that necessarily correlates back to um whether or not you can build a team and have a team of individuals that collectively are um seeking to bring themselves bring the best of themselves but also contribute to something greater than themselves at the same time.
SPEAKER_07I agree with that. I was just more highlighting that I think that there are generally speaking the ones who don't teem to don't seem to be invested are them and or you as a leader haven't worked out how to unlock what they are. But you know what though? There's also something to say I think there's something to be said for someone, sometimes the environment isn't the right environment for that team member either.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, it's uh it's the leader's responsibility. I'm like I believe that you need to meet people halfway on just about everything, but as a leader, you kind of need to be the one that takes the first step towards the halfway point. You can't wait for other people to take that first step. It is your responsibility to yes, meet people halfway, but more than that, be the one to take that first step towards extending the olive branch, asking the leading question, seeking to understand, do that discovery, looking to learn more about what motivates individuals to understand how you can then go on that journey together to unlock their potential. It's your responsibility as a leader.
SPEAKER_07I agree wholeheartedly with that.
Culture Without The “Work Family”
SPEAKER_07Um, what is on the topic of it? Good segue, what I guess uh is your your ethos, I think, in terms of your business and how you like to manage and or be managed and/or manage up, down, all the rest of that kind of thing. Do you know what I mean? Like, what's your kind of business MO? Like, I know what ours is at Clarity Street, but what's yours in your I hate being managed. Yeah, I get that part. So now that you don't have to manage per se, that's probably I um that's not like that's like that's a throwaway line.
SPEAKER_01I actually I've worked, I personally feel like I've worked with some fantastic leaders and learnt a lot, and I was excited to be part of their teams and learn from them and contribute. And I've also had the complete opposite. So um I am glad that I gave the opportunity now to be part of building that environment with with Tim where our ethos culture, I think is a better way of saying culture, ethos, whichever.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think the culture is I certainly don't believe that organizations should fall into the trap of calling themselves a family. I think that's something that's well documented and acknowledged now that perhaps maybe 10, 15, 20 years ago there was a little bit of that um going on where businesses and teams was trying to strive to be this so-called family. Um I think it's it comes from a the environment that I want is just a place of mutual respect where um the the pitch or the the goalposts are are very clear. Um this is the game that we're playing, these are the rules that we play. Um we're all colleagues and we're all signing up for something together. Um mutual respect across the board by default, um, and there are opportunities for us to collaborate and move forward together and get better. And in return, everyone should feel like they're getting something back that is equally, or if not more valuable than what they themselves are putting in. So the sum of everyone's contributions ends up being a more holistic um outcome for everyone involved. And that doesn't necessarily just have to be financial, it can be development-wise, opportunity-wise, curiosity-wise, experience-wise, um, flexibility-wise. Um, but I think it's just creating that environment where every f everyone feels like if I give, if I give 100%, I know I'm actually going to get 110, 120% back out the other side consistently. Um, and when people feel like they're on one and they're motivated one day, they come in and then they give that 100% and they know that they're getting heaps of goodness in return. Um, so that would be for me, that's the the type of environment, but it's a professional environment. Respect um your colleagues, you're not family members, you're there to do a job, you're there to enjoy doing it, learn as much, contribute as much to help the others around you succeed as well. That's um that's probably what I'd say for culture and ethos. What about you, Amy?
SPEAKER_07Uh I second what you said. That's they're sort of our for us as well, except that I have a people first, as in you are a human being first. You have a life outside of the business first. Yeah. So life is number one priority. But equally saying that, it's a quid, you know, it's a quid pro type scenario, like it's a mutual respect insofar as I am a very flexible human being, I will support whatever flexibility options you need. But equally, when you're here, you work hard and we do work hard and we work bloody hard. We are currently hiring at the moment. So if anybody's listening to this, hey, come and get a job. Anyway, um, but more so it's it's fast-paced where we work. You are it's not hard work what we do, but there are some heavy conversations because you are helping people mentally change their mentality and the way that they've been conditioned, and you are holding their hand through that change process. I'm not even talking about the tech, I'm actually talking about, you know, just processes and procedures and the way that they've operated for quite some time. So it's really heavy conversations. It's also fast-paced. We are in and out of meetings. Like we have an acronym internally, which is PP, um, which is for a power pee. Um because we work so like like our meetings are literally back to back, back to back, back to back, right? So, in terms of, you know, that's why you have to be a human being first, and there has to be flexibility ultimately. But you know, a couple of things is we're not here to wipe your butt. You need to be a self-starter. Plain and simple. We are here to help, we will answer anything, we will like book some time in with us, reach out to us, we will help you until the cows come home. But you need to actually let us know and be a self-starter, basically.
Accountability And Courageous Conversations
SPEAKER_01Sounds like a a high performance culture. Just on that one, wiping um wiping other people's butts. Talk to me about accountability. Like if someone does need their needs to be called out on something or their attention drawn to something, how do you handle that?
SPEAKER_07I book a time and I say permission to have a courageous conversation with you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. Basically. And I usually say, so this is what I found, this is what's going on. If the roles were reversed, what would you do?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_07You can't be more accountable, you can't be more accountable than for them to actually have to think about their own behaviour to then know how to deal with it, basically. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Self-deflection is huge. Yeah, it's so hard to you can't you can lead a what is it? You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, yeah. Correct, right? It is but uh the other the other aspect to this is I am a very transparent human being. I'm a very open and honest, you know, human being. I I don't hide anything in the business. In fact, I probably share too much, let's be honest. Um, but in terms of my team, I am protective mama bear. Like, as in, I will not let any team member and or any client talk to my team in any way, shape, or form, which is disparaging. The moment I get a whiff of that, I'm like, no. Because I am very protective of them, so I should be. I've had pretty shitty past HR experiences, no offense, but from the accounting industry. And I never want to be in a position to replicate that. Like I'm a pretty direct and harsh person, or can be, but I'm also a very compassionate, understanding, caring person. And I think that that comes through when you have a team and you have to be that, hence going back to that whole. You need to be a human being first.
SPEAKER_01You do. You um it's interesting. Like one of the most valuable lessons I think I ever learned um as I was getting exposure to different leaders and different jobs and things like that, was one one really good leader when I was at zero, his uh his whole philosophy was it's not so much what you don't tolerate and how well known you make it felt and known out there and what you don't tolerate. Um, real culture and real leadership comes from what you demonstrate as being what you do tolerate. So if you don't take action, if you have a client that is uh maybe a little bit condescending, rude, uh, and not treating people the right way, just the like the lack of action says way more from a culture and leadership perspective than maybe necessarily your stated position around, oh yeah, these are our values, we expect people to do this. Like sometimes you actually um by not taking action, it demonstrates that you're tolerating, which is an even more damaging um uh outcome from an overall culture perspective. So I'm very acutely aware of like when those behaviors creep in or those little moments where you have an opportunity to reinforce what actually matters and taking action and demonstrating those values. I think it is really important to have that bias towards taking action to stamp that stuff out so it's well known what you're not tolerating. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Um I think it's it's it can be a hard one though, as well though, because you can sometimes feel like you're micromanaging them if because ultimately people all have their own inflections and their personalities and the way that they would do things and present things. And I think sometimes as leaders we also have to remember that just because they did it a way, it may not be our way or how we would have done it. And this is a lesson that I have 100% had to learn the hard way. Was the outcome achieved? Is the client happy? Was it still done?
SPEAKER_01I reckon, I reckon that's something a lot of accountants we we struggle with. That's why I'm saying it, because I know that. I so do. Like I am so I'm in some things, I'm like very particular in OCD. Yep. And I I know where it came from. Um, and like early on when my first got first exposed into practice, like I worked with some partners that were very particular, and things had to be done a certain way. Letters of advice, you had to have three lines of spacing between the date and the person's name, and you always had to sign it off. Best wishes for one partner, kind regards from the other partner. Um just the like level of attention to detail on that kind of stuff has kind of I guess triggered me to have similar behaviors and care about certain things in that way. And then when you back out of it, A, does the client give a shit? Hell no. Um, and and B, is it going to focusing on that stuff? Is it a waste or is it going to detract away from some of the other things that you could be doing that are more valuable? So whilst I agree from like athletes and stuff will tell you that it's all about the one percenters and attention to detail on the small things, but at some point in time you have to be willing to relinquish some of those one percenters and focus on the bigger picture and find two percenters instead of focusing all your energy on on the one percent. Agree. So yeah, I'm with you. Sometimes you've got to like tail swift, shake it off, let it go. Correct, let it go. Don't die on the hill for it.
SPEAKER_07Let it go.
Remote Teams Need Connection By Design
SPEAKER_07Um, I I do have a very open culture because this actually leads into the next part of where clo from a clarity strike perspective is we I don't have an office. So one of the other prerequisites of working um for my company is that you have to be very comfortable working from home or organizing your own office environment separate because we don't have a let's all come together. Um, so all of my team members are remote. Uh remote within one is Australian based in NZ, but otherwise we're all remote, as in like we're all Aussies working in different states basically. Um we have had offshore team members as well, which we will come to because we're going to talk about them too. Um, but uh we all have to be comfortable with not being in an office environment, and that doesn't suit everybody. But I can tell you that we have many catch-ups throughout the day. We have Slack teams, all of the all of the tools that allow us to be very connected. You never feel like you don't have people around you. Do you know what I mean? Like because you're in and out of meetings all day long and you're in and out of talking to people and questioning things, and there's notifications coming left, right, and centre. But it is a different type of working environment. And we've recently um had a new starter with us who's been in practice in an office and is now working from home. She's like, it's been a real adjustment. I'm like, yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_06Good adjustment?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, yeah, good adjustment, but just di different, just completely different. It's it's not what you used to. And why is it different?
SPEAKER_01Like from a I get it from a commute perspective, but like why what actually makes it different? Because to my knowledge, when you work in professional practice, you have a desk, you have two screens, maybe three screens, you clock in, you open your laptop, you do your work, you maybe have a couple of chats, you have some conversations, you go have some meetings with clients in meeting rooms, background noise, phone calls.
SPEAKER_07It's background noise, that's background noise. No, no, no, no. As in like sorry, that no no no like I can't hear background noise right now, Will. I mean like when you're when you're when you're in an office environment, you there is background noise. There is there are people around you, and that can be quite confronting when there's all of a sudden you're at home and it's potentially when you're focused on something, it's deathly silent. Whereas I love that because I'm really loud and I get excitable and I do lots of webinars and presentations and stuff, and I don't want to try and hinder my personality, which is why I was like, right, I'm just working from home. That way I can't annoy anyone. Can't annoy anybody in a different office by being so loud because having worked in an accounting practice, I also appreciate how much accountants sometimes really desire their focus time and silence.
SPEAKER_01So I I've um I mean I've thought a lot about this. My preference is to find a way to have a good balance. And I don't think there is necessarily a right way of all remote is good, all working in the office is good. I think there's pros and cons to both. I think what's most important and the like um the tiebreakers on a lot of those pros and cons comes down to what's the social connection amongst your colleagues? Yep. And like, are you actually engaging on a human level and having conversations that aren't always revolving around work? Um and how do you show interest in each other's lives, share stories, show interest, build relationships, build connections, build network? That's important. So you have to find a way to solve for that. And the other one is to solve from a development learning experience. So, how are people going to get exposed to those learning opportunities that might come very easily in the office for an as an example when you're maybe listening to someone with more experience, a more senior member of the team having a conversation with a client or a staff member or workshopping a potential solution as an example? If you, when you're in your earlier years, if you don't get exposure to those types of conversations, it stunts your growth and your development. Doesn't necessarily mean that the only way to get that is by being in the office. I believe you just have to find a way to carve out time where you are having those coaching, development, sharing type conversations with a team. So as long as you can knock off social and you can knock off coaching and development and exposure, then I I believe that you should be able to manage a full remote-only um type type setup.
SPEAKER_07I 100% agree. Uh, to give you a very brief high level, um Mondays and Wednesdays, we have a quick 15-minute 9 a.m. How are you going? How's your weekend? Are you alive? What's going on? And one of the team actually started with, hey, can I just ask a question about a client? I went, no, that's what the next meeting's for. How are you as a human? Just recently, right? So and I deliberately did it. Because I'm like, nope, this is not the time. If there is something business related which is really pressing, sure. I mean, that's also the hey, this is happening and we're going to this event or that kind of thing announcement. But generally it's the who are as a human. It's the water cooler chat time, basically, right? Uh, we have a lunch and learn on a Monday, which is an hour of this is what we've found, this is kind of cool, this is new tech, that kind of thing. Um, we have Mondays are pretty much our internal meeting catch-ups, plus a Thursday quick little catch-up as well for our project team. And then we have Friday Funnies, which then got moved to Friday Funnies on a Thursday, which is back to Friday Funnies that was on a Thursday, which is now back to a Friday.
SPEAKER_01Um, which is it's just um I couldn't deal with that kind of change to my schedule. No, I know, right, I know, right.
SPEAKER_07I mean, it's this has progressively been over the last three years, though, to be fair. So it's just finding the right day. Um, but it's like we also carve out time. Like we do cover out time, but I will also often flick a one of the team like every it is weird if I haven't spoken to every team member once a day. Do you know what I mean? Like it like and it's just a quick how you doing? You got five? You got a moment? Blah blah blah. That kind of thing.
SPEAKER_01Is it always video for you or do you do phone?
SPEAKER_07Sometimes sometimes phone because I sometimes I'm in the car and I'm driving and I'm doing stuff, so it's on the phone. Um but otherwise it's really helpful to video call. That kind of thing.
SPEAKER_01I think the I find that sometimes the trap is to when it is more remote, the the trap to maybe not fall into is forcing all of these screen time video type conversations into the schedule. Um I want the dog when we have a team meeting sometimes deliberately because I'm like impromptu phone conversations, discussions, workshops. You've got to- Okay, go on, haven't talked.
SPEAKER_07What's going on?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you gotta have like you gotta have capacity built into the framework so that those types of things can happen. But by the same token, you don't want people that might have like a really busy day stacked back to back with meetings, you don't want other team members that are having maybe a quieter day to then just be blowing up their colleagues' phones and trying to have little chats here and there because that can be really stressful for the other person. So quick message.
SPEAKER_02Got five, got a mo? You're busy?
SPEAKER_01So you consider those types of things. Um, I think is important for people to figure out. And I don't know what the answer is. I just I just keep coming back to human connection is really, really important. Regardless of if we're introverts or extrovert extroverts, I think leaders need to really find ways to bring introverts and extroverts personalities together so that people feel comfortable in that environment, comfortable to contribute, comfortable to be part of it. Don't have, don't bring anxiety into participating in those things. You you gotta find ways to connect with people individually and make them feel comfortable contributing and being part, not always contributing, but being part of the that larger group and not feeling isolated, not feeling overwhelmed. Like you've got to break down those barriers, and then I reckon you can have a very healthy um remote first culture or flexible and balanced culture. That's my view.
SPEAKER_07I agree.
Sponsor Break
SPEAKER_07On the topic of which, I feel like we should hear from our wonderful, wonderful sponsors.
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SPEAKER_01And a very special thanks to our friends over at Account Kit. They are bringing this episode to you today.
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Onshore Outsourcing And Contractor Talent
SPEAKER_07Um let's talk about outsourcing. Because I feel like uh it is, I mean, I still feel like I get contacted by an outsourcing firm a week, which a different outsourcing firm a week, which is interesting.
SPEAKER_01Only one a week? I know, I know, right? Oh, you're getting off lightly. My LinkedIn is just 99% of my LinkedIn.
SPEAKER_07BPO outsources, all of that kind of stuff. Outsourcing. You know what though, what I wanted to touch on before we get to the traditional more outsourced methodology is something that is um, I don't think recognized enough, which is outsourcing, but onshore outsourcing.
SPEAKER_01Tell me more, how does that even work? What is that?
SPEAKER_07I think it's more traditional accounting practices seem to have a penchant for feeling like they need to be able to see their human beings, as in they need to be able to come into the office. So this talks to the um the offshore, you know, the the remote working style, that kind of thing, right? So if you are comfortable with the idea, depending on what the level of experience is with a team member, which I appreciate, there are a lot of accountants that are based not in your state or not in your suburb that might want a job with you that may not be able to come into your office, but can still do all of the work very successfully. And I'm talking um uh, you know, they might they might be into state, they might be a return to work mum, for example. They might be um someone who is consulting, someone who is doing contract work for, you know, one or two firms. That's another one. Why do we not have contractors in this industry? I have raised this before. I don't understand. Like, why is it that you can have a locum, doctors, like doctor locums, right, that can just flip into um you know hospitals and things like that. But we don't have, you know, yeah, why don't we have um contracting accountants who go and do work for different firms?
SPEAKER_01Very interesting topic. I know it's there from a business model perspective. Yes, if you really look at it, you I think it's worthwhile for people to maybe invest a little bit of time in understanding what that looks like because it comes at the intersection of the PSI rules from a tax perspective, okay, the professional firm profits rules as well. And it also looks um from a payroll tax perspective as well. And is it like a relevant if you start engaging contractors, is it a relevant contract from a superannuation obligation? Are there additional okay?
SPEAKER_07Let's go, let's go pre the pre those change of rules, right?
SPEAKER_01No, but if you if you if you can I believe that there is opportunity to have a contractor type arrangement and relationship here that actually commercially makes a lot of sense where you don't have to come on as an employee, and it's actually ends up being more favorable to both parties commercially to to look and structure themselves in that way.
SPEAKER_07I know of an accountant who um he might be listening, he might not be. Um he was telling me this. We went to the tennis, I think was it this year or the last year was telling me. Anyway, we were at a tennis event together, and he was telling me about um his firm and what he has tapped into, which is um accountants who have got to a stage in their twilight years, call it, uh, that still really want to work, but don't want to work full-time, but don't also want to continue necessarily owning their practice. And or they might have, they may not have been a director or a partner in their business, but they're in their sort of twilight years, and they're just like, you know what, I just want to kind of scale back to a couple of days a week. But I also, you know, I'm I'm and they just want to process stuff. They might be really good at the relationship side, or they don't have to be really good at the relationship side, but they're very qualified, but they might only want to do like two or three days a week. And he's got a couple of those human beings working for him and kicking goals, absolute kicking goals. Like they just they they've got their, these are the clients, they manage their workflow, they've just it just works.
SPEAKER_01There's the number of people that are capable of maybe running uh four to five, six hundred thousand dollars worth of accounting fees um on from existing clients that they know the relationships with, they've been working with them for years, to be able to deliver on that and do it on maybe three days a week. Like it's totally doable. Yeah. Um, and I reckon me in ten years, I'd be so up for that kind of process of dig. Like you know what you're in the spring chicken. Yeah, I know you're not there. I got at least 10 before I earn the right to be able to 20?
SPEAKER_06I love this. This is year two of will in public practice earning a business.
SPEAKER_07But yeah, to the point about onshore outsourcing, yeah. I think that there is an untapped market out there of a lot of human beings that if you just actually thought outside the square and didn't feel like you needed to have them turning up to your office, there is a lot of opportunity out there to, you know, to give some team members a really good go um and you know fulfill some of the capacity issues because, you know, I mean we can talk about AI until the cows come home and how you know technology is going to solve all of our people problems, all the rest of that kind of stuff. And I think it's you know, there's so many, there's so many aspects to the human being component of working in business, but ultimately it comes down to providing a good place for employees to work in, which is great. But we need to be able to find people. So if they have the skill set, why do we need to restrict them to only being in, you know, the I don't know, demographic or the area that your office is located?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I and I don't even know if like having an office presence makes all that much of a difference.
SPEAKER_07Um I don't think clients care. Oh no, hang on. Depending on that's not fair. That's not fair. There are regional areas and that they definitely do care.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'd say as a general statement, clients don't care, but there's definitely uh an exception to that where like if you're a firm that has a very uh visible presence in a particular area or location, that actually is part of your strategy, is being a high visible firm on that corner with great signage and you've been there for 30 years and everyone knows, yep, if you're um uh a small business, family business, starting a business, like that's just the firm that you go to. They have good culture, good partners, highly visible. Um, that's who you want to go to. So that's like a viable strategy. But I don't know, I feel like people are maybe if that's not part of your strategy, I don't think it has to be part of strategy. I think there's other strategies like you can niche down into specific verticals and have a national uh remote first culture, and you can just pump out really good content um so that you attract people and you start showing up in Chat GPT's clawed responses because the content that you're putting out there into the universe is going to that kind of um that kind of buyer or that kind of potential
Onboarding Realities And The Three Month Rule
SPEAKER_01client. Um, so there's other ways of being discoverable and getting and being found by potential clients that don't revolve around having your own office as long as you're helping people in the firm learn from each other and have social connection with each other, which segues into another good one, which is onboarding new team members.
SPEAKER_07Why is this always so damn difficult? But also, I had a good chat with someone today actually about this. I feel like sometimes we underestimate just how much time it takes for us to actually onboard a new team member. When I say, and I'm not talking about the basic, like, you know, TFN, bank account details, contract sign. I'm not talking about that stuff. I'm talking about this is the way we do things, these are our processes, these are our procedures, this is the tech we use, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like all of that kind of stuff. Um I think we definitely underestimate how much time that does take and how much time we make the assumption that we're like, oh no, they'll be fine, they'll just work it out themselves.
SPEAKER_01Nah.
SPEAKER_07Nah, they really won't.
SPEAKER_01They really won't. It takes a long time to be able to understand all of the dots before you can start connecting the dots. And when you're being immersed into a brand new environment, um, it's very overwhelming. Everyone wants to make a really good first impression, right? But when you go straight into a new environment and there are so many dots for you to connect, it can be very overwhelming. And no matter what your level of experience is as well. Any environment, yeah, because it doesn't matter wherever you're going, regardless of your experience level, you're going into a newer environment and you're gonna have these expectations on yourself and other people are going to have expectations of you. And if you um if you aren't aware of that and you can't put yours show a high degree of empathy by putting yourself into that individual's shoes, you um you're gonna miss the opportunity for making that first experience really valuable um and like welcoming and not relaxing but calming for that individual, which I believe will have a really positive effect on their ability to contribute sooner, quicker, and for longer over time, and then also pass that experience on to other people that subsequently onboard afterwards. So I think it's really important to have a good, thoughtful and um safe onboarding experience for people so that they're not uh deer in headlights and sink or swim because that's just so stressful.
SPEAKER_07I think as well, like I mean, different tech stacks as well play a massive, like they have a massive impact in that. Yeah, damn straight they do. Because from the perspective of there are so many different pieces of tech out there that we use. I know even just like even just at Clarity Street, but also in an accounting practice, your practice management, your document management, your work papers, your signing solution. Um, do we do stuff through the ATO portal? Do we do stuff direct through the tax software? How we do you know what I mean? Like job workflow, timesheets, no timesheets, um, proposal software. Do you know what I mean? Like there's a lot of tech these days. I'm I'm feeling anxious to say, yeah, that that that's what that's what I mean, right? Like, and then you've and then you've got, well, are we saving documents in SharePoint and are the internal documents in SharePoint or are they in your document management solution, right? So it might be FYI hypothetically. Um where are we finding our processes and procedures for this? Oh, some of the processes and procedures are in SharePoint, some of them are in your work papers, some of them, or we don't have them. And then there is, well, what teams, what communication tools are we using? Do we use Teams for that? Do we use you know, do we email this? Like, there's lots of different idiosyncrasies of each firm which are different. The tech might be the same, but the way that each firm uses it and to what degree they use each piece of the tech is different, and that can take a hell of a lot more time. Like, I know just again, onboarding your team members here at Clarity Street, we use lots of different pieces of tech. I didn't think that we did, but we really do. Whoopsie. Um I mean you can kind of understand why we do, but I've tried to keep it lean, but it doesn't, it doesn't have it's just for this client, and when we do a data conversion for this, you need to use it this way, and for this, you need to use it that way.
SPEAKER_01You know, like there's just I thought this conversation was going the tech that you should use to facilitate an on-board.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah, I'm getting to that.
SPEAKER_01No, no, yeah, but like I I agree with you. Like it's um how you stitch together the awareness and knowledge of how tech is leveraged across the practice.
SPEAKER_07That is like admin versus accountant is also different, massively different.
SPEAKER_01I suspect this is where a lot of firms fall down when they're going through the early phases of growth of like building out a team, and when you go from being like the Rainmaker principal that's billing out X and you bring on your first couple of staff members, sure you might have time to train and coach people. But if you're not actually developing systems and processes and documenting things throughout that journey, by the time you get to like employee number four, number five, number six, you don't have time to onboard people and show people one-on-one, and you've probably missed the opportunity to standardize and document a lot of those processes. So, and that's where I reckon a lot of firms fall down when they go from through that journey of like principal to a team of four or five to now trying to get to like six, seven, eight, nine, ten employees, it can become a hot mess real fast.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, but then let's pretend that you have been incredibly amazing and documented everything, and you've got processes for everything, and you've got recordings of everything, um, and everything's just done, and and you're amazing in that department. You then need to remember how much time it's going to take for that new team member to actually wade through all of that information and absorb all of that information whilst they're still expected to maybe be doing some work. Oh yeah. Which we don't factor in, I don't think, as business owners.
SPEAKER_01How long do you like reasonably give someone before you can actually expect someone if you do it, give them everything and coach them the right way? Like, what's the reasonable amount of time before someone's fully remembered? Minimum three months. Minimum.
SPEAKER_07I know I know that that sounds like a really long time, but I would say three to six months, right? So my take is however long you think it's going to take, double that and then double that time again. And that's a pretty good rule of thumb with generally most things. I used to say that about um data cleansers with your with your like your um literally your database of all of your clients and information. However long you think it'll take to clean that up, double it and then double it again. And it's it's not an unfair rule of thumb when it comes to onboarding new team members as well, because they go through peaks and troughs. They'll they'll have a really good week where they're like, oh my god, I've got this thing. This is amazing. I understand everything, it's great. And then they'll have other weeks where they are like things just don't work the right way, and everybody's in meetings and they can't ask questions, and then they're massively overwhelmed and they feel really, I guess, what's the word, useless in a way, and they're like, oh my god, I'm just failing at what I'm doing, and I'm not taking this in and I'm just not absorbing information. And then you're like, just take a breath.
SPEAKER_01You're fine. If that if that if someone's feeling like that, you have I'm sorry, but you've failed as a leader. Sure. That's your responsibility.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, no, I get that. But sometimes businesses can't afford to not throw people in the deep end at times. And yes, you might have failed at a lead as a leader, but you know, what if your team dynamics have changed and you someone unforeseen had to leave quite like they they left the business in a way that you know just quite suddenly, and you couldn't you couldn't do much about that. And then, you know, all of a sudden you've got extra client work, and it's just sometimes that's just part and parcel, right?
SPEAKER_01I I I agree that it happens a lot. I would say it's definitely preventable, and it's not like failure is actually a bad thing, but not always preventable. Um, failure's not necessarily a bad thing as long as you're learning from that, and then it's kind of like it's again, it's the self-reflection piece of like, oh, I probably should have done X, Y, and Z, and maybe the outcome would have been different.
SPEAKER_07Um But it's also us as human beings putting expectations on ourselves, right? Because sometimes we might uh as a new team member, we might want to achieve because we are an overachiever, therefore we put pressure on ourselves to know everything really quickly and learn everything really quickly. So is that a failure of the leader or is that a failure of the human being and the new team member who is putting themselves under undue pressure to try and excel and prove themselves? It's um chicken and egg, I guess.
SPEAKER_01If the leader, if the leader's gone halfway and taken that first move to like ask the right questions and form the relationship and understand that personality or behavior that that person might actually have, um if you've reached out and observed and had those conversations and you've noticed it and you ask questions about it to go on that journey of like understanding how to get the most out of someone, if you've done that as a leader and that person still hasn't been able to meet you halfway on that, then yeah, you can kind of walk away and say, Alright, well, I did all the right things and this just isn't working. And then it's like it's okay. It's like cool. You met someone halfway, they didn't want to meet you the other half. Like it is what it is, move on.
SPEAKER_07But that's what I mean by peaks and troughs of team members when they're when they're going through an onboarding and a learning. Like learning and new stuff and change is very uncomfortable because it really challenges us to be a vulnerable human being and it challenges us to go, maybe I don't know everything about everything. Like I thought that I did know everything about everything. Oh, just by default, just um you don't, you don't know shit. Of course, of course we don't. But as human beings, we I'm sorry, our ego would tell us otherwise. Well no, I'm sorry, I again I'm generalizing here. I'm sorry, I'm just as a natural instinct. We do know stuff, of course we do, so we think that we do, but not always in every circumstance, and it's sometimes uncomfortable to go through a learning process. I mean, that's what change management is. What am I?
SPEAKER_01But I would say it's very healthy to acknowledge that you're it's very unlikely that you're going to know much relative to how much you could know. And you're just demonstrating high degree of emotional intelligence is showing that self awareness of like I might be really good at some things based on my experience, but there is absolutely no guarantee that this is going to set me up to um be a wizard or. Yeah, um highly experienced expert forever in this area. There is always more discovery that you can learn. Um, and I think having that open mindset towards just people throw it around in like lifelong learning and things like that. But sometimes the most valuable experience and knowledge will actually come from you being vulnerable enough to know that to acknowledge what you don't know, just go on that journey to learn that first thing, that first hurdle right in front of you, and you would be amazed at what can like emerge on the other side of once you've you've been open to taking on that new new experience or new learning. Um that's that's a high degree of emotional intelligence for me. And those are the types of people that I love working with. Me too. Um, because I learn a lot from them.
SPEAKER_07Yep. I'm exactly the same. The the ability to basically go, I don't know shit. Can you help? Yeah. Or can we go on this journey together? Or you do know more about this topic than I do, and I'm feeling really uncomfortable. Can you just can you just hold my hand whilst we go through this together until I feel comfortable?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_07I do that regularly.
SPEAKER_01Can you manage me, Amy, please?
SPEAKER_07You're so cute, Will. All right, really quick because um what we thought was going to be a quick episode, we have apparently um been able to talk about people quite a bit. People, they're the best kind of people, see?
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
HR Tools Plus Feedback Cadence That Works
SPEAKER_07Couple of techie pieces on this one, real quick, for I guess the Australian market. HR Central, Happy HR, or Employment Hero are some of the main players in the marketplace to help you manage, call it the compliance elements of contracts and um reviews and like you know, your six-monthly reviews or annual reviews, those kinds of things, and making sure that your policies and your procedures from a HR compliance aspect, they are definitely out there to assist you. Um I think that they all come with like any other application out there, they all come with their pros and cons. Find one that works for you and your business. I think ultimately just make sure from a HR perspective, be compliant. More than anything, though, schedule regular catch-ups and document things. Document things and document things. Do I need to say that again? Document conversations that you have just in case.
SPEAKER_01I um a lot of my career's been spent on the corporate side and in tech and other companies rather than in professional practice. Um, I I feel like this is an opportunity for um the professional services professional practice environment. I think corporates do informal, more regular and consistent feedback loops and conversations much better than what happens in practice. It feels like in practice it's very rigid and structured and like once-a-year review. Um, and it's not you don't get that much like informal feedback along the way.
SPEAKER_07I feel like it's also they're just doing it because they know they need to tick a box.
SPEAKER_01The the once-a-year thing? Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, well, just it generally comes down to rem rem review. It's like, all right, let's go through our calibration process for wherever I'm at, and then where's what's our sat um salary increases and stuff? Yep, cool, great. Go through that process. That's almost like just rubber stamping it at the end. I I feel like that you've got to be having um our approach is you've got to be at least having a more formal one once a quarter. You have to be having a less formal one monthly that trees up into the quarterly, more formal one. Um, and then weekly you you've got to be asking the questions from extra conversation developments. Yeah. That needs to be happening at least weekly. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I think there's like a weekly cadence that rolls up into a less formal monthly that then rolls up into a more formal quarterly, and then the annual one is just like a rubber stamping of the four quarters that have gone through. Um I really like that. That's been my experience from a corporate side, and I'd be keen to start rolling that out in in our firms. Um as long as people thought that that was gonna be valuable and helpful.
SPEAKER_07I agree wholehearted.
Kind Leadership And Transparent Takeaways
SPEAKER_07I think that that's a possibly what what's your main takeaway, Will?
SPEAKER_01Uh oh, that wasn't on the run sheet, Amy. Uh, what's my main takeaway? Yeah. My main takeaway is that relationships in general are difficult. Um, they are very complicated, and I think what you said around overestimating how quickly people are going to be able to join the dots and pick things up. Um, I think the main takeaway is to be really aware uh and empathize with the situation that other people might find themselves in when they are joining a new team and to over-index on making that as safe as possible for people is is really, really important and don't underestimate it. Um, and be kind. Don't don't have aggressive, outrageous, unrealistic expectations of people that you couldn't even meet yourself, let alone if you were in their position at that point in their journey. Um so my main takeaway is like, yeah, just take a kindness approach, give people a uh take responsibility for creating their environment that is safe for people to be able to um to go on their journey and do things their way in their time for the best outcome. Um what about you, Amy?
SPEAKER_07Transparency.
SPEAKER_01Oh, see, I just waffled and you just went one word, bang.
SPEAKER_07No, I got three. I got three. Transparency, vulnerability, authenticity. Ew. Practice what you preach, and just remember people are people first. Like people are human beings first. They're not robots, they're actually human beings, and yes, there's a commercial output from them, but they're human beings first.
SPEAKER_01And like lean into relationships.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, exactly. Just be a good human being to another good human being, and 99.9% of the time it'll come back to you in a good way.
SPEAKER_01It it usually always leads to something more positive that you otherwise wouldn't have got exposure to. Agreed. Um just uh and I know it's tough, but yeah, you I think you just gotta be open to it and lean into it.
SPEAKER_07Um And when you do do that, people can be the best kind of people.
SPEAKER_01They can. And it doesn't have to be everyone. Everyone can find their tribe, find the people that they have more of a connection with. Um but you won't find those people unless you you do you are brave enough and vulnerable enough to put yourself out there and look to build connections.
SPEAKER_07Agreed.
SPEAKER_01Have a go.
SPEAKER_07Thanks, Will. Great chat.
SPEAKER_01Loved it. Let's do it again.
SPEAKER_07Bye, everybody!
Where To Follow And Share
SPEAKER_05Hey, hey team, it's Allie from All Aussie Accounting Adventures. Thanks for joining us for this tech edition and joining Amy and Will. We hope you've picked up a few great insights and ideas. If you'd like to keep following the adventure, make sure you check out our website and find us all across the socials. We are everywhere, you know us. Just search All Aussie Accounting Adventures. Whether it's conferences, the website, the podcast, social media, there's always something happening with us, so make sure to follow. And don't forget to share the episode with your accounting mates. We love that stuff, so thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next adventure.