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ALL IN Advisory | Your squad of award-winning accountants, tax wizards & biz visionaries, perfectly tailored to elevate your biz. Let's soar together!
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Mayday | Revolutionise your finance teams multi-entity month end through real-time accounting
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ENTENTE (@ententemusic) | Instagram
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David Easton (@davidjeasty) | Insta...
Hi Amy.
Speaker 2:Hey.
Speaker 1:Jack, how you doing? I'm great. How are you? I'm fantastic, I'm fantastic and I'm looking forward to today. We've got a good one. This is a juicy one actually.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a real juicy one.
Speaker 1:And I wanted to kick it off with a little bit of inspiration from our friend Andrew, with a little bit of a joke. Okay, so why did the API go to therapy? I?
Speaker 2:don't know why did the API go to therapy Jack?
Speaker 1:It had too many relationship issues, and that's what this topic is about Integrations Sorry, and feature requests Yep.
Speaker 2:So let's crack into it Awesome Round and Muff innovators. It's time to tame the stampede of integrations and features. Settle up as we navigate the landscape of technological advancement, and that is what we are discussing today is APIs, integrations, new features, how we are. So much in this episode, jack, so much. Let's kick things off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I mean I'm happy to kind of. I think there's a there's a broad agenda to today that's worth covering and it's the key questions that I and we hear a lot when it comes to new features and apps that are in the market and new apps and you know the things that are on your mind, hopefully. It's like why do these new features take so long, or why do they never get built? You know everyone's requesting this or this is so obvious. Why has this not been done? And you know, why don't these two apps integrate? Why don't they seem to get along? And how can I get what I want built? You know, I think, at a core, if we can answer those questions for you, we've fingers crossed, we've, we've done a good job today.
Speaker 2:I think so, and, unfortunately, I think we're probably going to burst a few bubbles with this episode as well. I think we're going to. I think we're going to. We're going to obviously shine a light as to what goes on, and that's the whole point of this episode is why do, why do integrations take so long? We may, we may not make you happy, though, just just prefacing that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wish there was a secret way to get everything you wanted built tomorrow. But yeah, no, unfortunately not. But there's some stuff that we can do to make things easier and faster. I reckon yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess what do we mean by feature requests and integrations Like what is that actually? Let's unpack that a little bit. What do we actually mean by that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay. So there are obviously two different things, but there's a crossover point. So you know, a feature request is just anytime you email through to support saying, hey, can you do this? Or you know I need this new feature. I, you know I'm trying to execute this process and I currently can't. There's something blocking me, stopping me.
Speaker 1:A feature request could be anything from just oh, can we have a new button? To a whole new module of a product. So you know, it could be really big, really small. And then an integration is, you know, something that's a little bit more external to just that one product, because a new feature within a product is something that they can handle entirely themselves and decide on entirely themselves, whereas an integration relies on two parties coming together, two software products and saying, hey, we do want to talk to each other. That could be one app pushing into another app, pulling from another app, or both apps kind of having a little bit of give and take and both doing something together. So I mean, I know that's very vague, but feel free to add.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no, yeah, no, I agree with that. That's exactly. It's not vague at all. It's exactly what it is and, I think, something to remember for the accounting market, especially in the AU and NZ side of the world.
Speaker 2:We are very spoiled with feature requests and integrations. I know a lot of the earlier adopters and the more tech advanced accountants out there would think that there's not enough advancement in technology in terms of feature requests and integrations, but we really are truly spoiled on this side of the pond in terms of how many apps actually do talk to each other from an operational standpoint, like if you look at the zero ecosystem and I call it the ecosystem of connected apps, there are so many apps that actually integrate with each other. Do they have deep integrations Ie they push and pull a lot of information or do they just have more shallow integrations, like they just connect for the sake of it? That's, I guess, what we're going to unpack today, but I think it is something to remember that, as much as we want innovation to continue, we are actually also very spoiled over here, and it's exciting that we do have so many different apps that actually do have fantastic features and integrations. So what happens when you request a feature. Why does it take so long?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I'm obviously I have had some experience on the startup side. I've worked in one for a few years and now working with many of them, so I mean I can give people a little bit of understanding as to what's going on behind the scenes. So if you email in and say, hey, I think this should be prioritized or built, this is a problem that we need solved. It's not if it's a bug. It's different. You know, I think if you're dealing with something that's not behaving the way, it's meant to report that stuff through to support and they'll generally prioritize that pretty quickly. Any bug is top of the list to have fixed. But a new feature is new value in the product. That's something a bit different and it's not preventing people from using the software today. It's just, you know, going to add more value if we do it. So we've got to decide as a team is this something that we want to do? Is there something else that we want to do first? So step one is your support item, or your request goes into what we call a backlog. So a backlog is a funny way of saying a very, very long list of all the many, many, many, many things people want us to build right as a startup. So it's huge. Normally, you know, it doesn't take long for a backlog to become extremely full of many, many ideas, some better than others. From there there's usually a prioritization process. So if you know what teams are made up of, you know you've normally got CTOs and you've got product managers and you've got engineers and you've got the CEO, and it depends how big the startup is or the tech company is, as to who would be involved in these conversations. But prioritizing what needs to be built next, that's a strategic call for the startup to make. They're deciding what do we think is either going to help us win new customers without costing us existing ones, or what could we add to the product that might get an existing customer to pay more money, or just, ultimately, what's going to keep them hanging around longer Because you're not going to do something if there's no dollar value attached to it. Right At the most. You know long or you know yeah. I suppose the longest view of this is to say, well, you could still improve your product even if you're not making more money now, because it shows to your customer base that you're innovators, that you want to keep pushing the boundaries and that just gives people confidence to hang around. So there's still a dollar value to that, which is people are going to be less likely to leave you for a competitor because they see what you're continuously pushing the boundaries. So prioritization and the strategy around that is quite an important part of why stuff gets built and why stuff doesn't.
Speaker 1:After something does get chosen to be built, so it's like, okay, cool, we want to prioritize this new feature, let's do it. Then there's a whole specs kind of process where you know people who have the domain expertise and maybe they have an accounting background or maybe they do the research with the accountants. They, you know, add a lot more detail to the feature request they go through what are the use cases for this? What are we trying to achieve with it? Maybe they wire, frame up some designs as to you know, like, because you can quickly mock up what we think this might look like without building it. So they go through that kind of process of going back and forth and deciding what it's going to look like. How far do we go with the feature? Do we just do, like the MVP, the minimum viable product, or do we do something a bit more fully fledged. Then it goes into development. So now you've got to do that.
Speaker 2:Hang on, you need to get people to actually buy into that wire frame and like what does that actually look like? Does it actually kind of work? So there's usually a bit of feedback, sometimes from people who have requested the feature.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. So you bring, oh, you try and keep the customers involved throughout the process. Where you can't, not too many of them, just a few, that's right. That's right. At some point someone says, yep, great, let's do it, let's build it. So now the development happens.
Speaker 1:This is often where things can take longer than expected, because there's a lot of technical challenges that are hard to predict and for anyone in accounting it's a bit of a black box, because we're not engineers. We don't know what it takes to write the code and how to integrate with this and connect this. And what happens if we've got old code over here and it becomes quite complicated. And that's how sometimes what might get told to us hey, it's going to be released, this quarter ends up being pushed quarter after quarter after quarter, because it just gets really hard and really messy and there's a whole bunch of reasons why that happens. Then there's probably a review.
Speaker 1:So after it gets built, there's an internal review alpha testing they call it which is like before we show it to anyone, let's test ourselves, let's go through a process to make sure we've identified any bugs we can. Then let's put it to our beta group. So if you're a beta tester. That's where you then get the feature deployed to your version of the software and you get to kind of. The point of being a beta tester is you get access to new stuff, but it's probably still a little broken, so you got to feed that back. That's kind of the give and take, and then eventually the product is good enough to go to, I guess, public release and it gets released. No doubt there's still going to be a few use cases, a few bugs that haven't been spotted, that take a thousand or 10,000 people to use before you realize what they are, and so there's always constant improvement after that.
Speaker 1:But yeah, now the features out the door. So lengthy process could be a week for a really small startup with a really small feature. Could be 12 months for a bigger, older startup with a big feature. That's going to take a long time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm glad that you just explained it in that much detail, because it actually that is. That's what the process is. It's huge. It's a huge process to actually make a feature request. I think the biggest one is a prioritization, because when you've got so many especially with the newer product you've got so many people giving you feedback around I want this and I want that and it should do this and it should. You should put that button there and you know this is what. It would be amazing if it did that.
Speaker 2:I am probably one of the best and worst people, in a way, to speak to when it comes to feature request in this space, as in. I know that I have provided a heap of feedback in the past around apps and I still do it. It's like you look at something and like, logically, why does that do that? And then you start playing with it like, oh, it doesn't work. Can we give? Can we? You know, can we? Can we make it?
Speaker 2:Do this instead, and you know there was an app that I was speaking to recently just in relation to it. It pulls in all the client data from zero practice manager and it, you know you want to be able to send out engagements, for example, but it doesn't technically group them at the moment and it was just, in fact, like working out well, would you group it at the group name level? Would you group it at the relationship level? And it's just even that just having the conversation around how how do you, if you've got an integration with another app and you're pulling information or you're pushing information, how is that going to deploy and respond and be received? There's so many different facets of actually understanding how all the tech works and what you've, what's available to you, and how it could work and therefore the logic behind it.
Speaker 2:And, as I said, like I know, I've as I said, I've been one of the worst in in in this space in a way, but also best because that's why a lot of really great tech and, like yourself, jack, you've provided ample amounts of feedback to tech over time and that's how they all get developed. So it's just hard to obviously wade through that backlog and the prioritization. You know, the intersection of what, what actually is important, where it's just because one person is jumping up and down saying this is amazing, and there's also the bright, shiny light syndrome of hearing that feedback and listening to people's ideas and going, oh my God, that's amazing. Yes, I would love, love it to do that and then going hang on a second.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, where does that actually fit? Well, I mean, like 99 times out of 100 is a good idea, right. Like nine times out of 100, your customer is saying, hey, I want this, I want you to do this and it's a good idea. It's. That's why it's so hard, because everything is a good idea. You know, every now and again you get one that you're like that's a terrible idea, that's not, you know but most of the time it's.
Speaker 1:it's yeah, that's logical, but I only have so many resources and it's just not going to move the dial as much as this other feature will.
Speaker 2:So I think, understanding.
Speaker 1:That is quite important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, and you know what, even even from like internally, like within clarity, straight right.
Speaker 2:So we're currently we have a learning and development platform and we basically have a whole heap of coursework which helps you understand how to use all the different cloud apps out there, and we've just moved platforms and we've been talking about creating and developing a whole heap of new coursework for, I reckon, easily 12 months, and it just feels like it takes so long to actually get to that stage. But I understand, even from my own perspective, like we're going through it at the moment, it feels like you're walking through mud or trying to run through mud. It just it just feels like it moves at a snail's pace. Things are happening, definitely they are, but it like I can understand on both sides of the coin, like both internally and when we've, like Jackie, worked in apps as well, like you, it feels like those developments take a while to actually come to fruition. But you know it, it it's just it feels like it takes ages, but it does happen eventually. I guess it does actually happen.
Speaker 1:No, it does. Yeah, but but I I know like this is obviously something we can talk about for a while, but I want to. I want to know, kind of now, you know we've discussed the process of a feature request, but how does that differ? When it's when the request is an integration or the, the thing we want, bill, is to say, oh, why don't you talk to that app? Because that would make my workflow so much better. At the moment I'm duplicating, you know, tasks across these two systems. Can you guys please talk to each other? So I mean, where do we start there? How do we start that conversation?
Speaker 2:Oh, it's such a big one because, again, this is a space that you and I have been in for for years now. It's literally that space of how all the it's like. You know, I think, In the world of accounting land. I almost feel like zero started this issue in a good way. I'm not saying issue, but not issue. You know what I mean. Like it's a really positive thing, because once zero had an open API, then all of a sudden all of these other apps decided to get created with an open API. But that's the problem is that not all apps have open APIs. Not all apps are actually cloud based. Some of them are local and server based applications, if we're talking in the world of the accounting space. So I think that the step one is does it have an open API?
Speaker 1:And for those who don't know what an API is, it's an application programming interface. That's what it stands for. But basically it's just a way for one app to say hey, we're gonna publicly put this out there and people can see it and you can write your own code to access that or pull some information using that, so that we don't have to talk to you every single time you want something. Here it is publicly, you can do what you want with this.
Speaker 1:But not all APIs are equal either. So some apps will be very generous with their API and say, oh, you can pull everything from our app, do whatever you like with it, and off you go. Others are quite more, a lot more, locked down and say, yeah, we have an open API, but all it does is this one thing. And so you as a user are like, oh, this app has an open API. I would like it if app one connected to that app and did this. It's like, well, we can't do that because their API doesn't let us do it. So, as much as we want it, as much as you want it, they are holding us back, and that's oftentimes the trouble with getting these things done is the APIs aren't there, and so it requires a lot of work from both teams to get it done, because it's like a custom job. And well, that would only happen if both parties came to the table.
Speaker 3:Now, Andrew, I have to tell you about a product that I implemented. It all in straightaway and I cannot believe every account in Australia isn't using it. And do you wanna?
Speaker 4:know which one it is? Please tell me.
Speaker 3:Account kit, my friend.
Speaker 4:Account kit. Account kit is bloody crazy, I know.
Speaker 3:ask me why I love it so much.
Speaker 4:Ellie, why do you love it so much?
Speaker 3:Because the Inter-Entity Loans, div7a, hp Group Structures. It is the bomb. Like seriously? It saves so much time. It takes anything from a senior down to a junior level and they're also implementing wait for it workflow. It's like.
Speaker 4:I know the workflow stuff is incredible. The whole idea to be able to get that full visibility on your clients, to be able to do anything from anywhere within the product itself and to be able to see everything from anywhere for those clients is pretty darn incredible. And I know we've said this a few times on few different sponsors of all Aussie accounting adventures. But it is software built by accountants for accountants, which means it often works.
Speaker 3:It absolutely does, which is bloody good, isn't it? And do you know what I also love? It minimizes the clicks to get the data you want. Like, honestly, the click, click, click, click, click. You're eliminating that, my friend.
Speaker 4:It's all the one-stop-shop, so get on account kit and you'll have less clicks. Less clicks for account kit Absolutely. Get amongst the friends, get onto it If I told you, Allie, that I was a massive fan of incorrect information. You're a liar. That is exactly the response that I think it frustrates me end to end when things are done and you find just really silly little mistakes. That just shouldn't happen.
Speaker 3:It just shouldn't happen. It cracks me to tears, I have to tell you.
Speaker 4:Well, there's bloody good news for you, allie. There is a tool out there that helps to solve all of those problems, and it is known as XBIRT. That is X-B-E-R-T. It is an A-I tool built for accountants and for bookkeepers.
Speaker 3:And I also know, andrew, it scans all of your client files multiple times per day. It can even fix for 76 common bookkeeping, accounting and tax payers 76?.
Speaker 4:I know, I know, I don't think we make that many mistakes in a day, but clearly we do Not at Illuminate. No Well, I mean, it's like having another member of your team, really, isn't it, if it's looking for those things. It's kind of dealing with a whole bunch of the time that you spend on the crappy stuff and allowing you to have more time to spend on better quality accounting, advisory, management work when you're dealing with your clients right, 100%.
Speaker 3:It can also manage prevention of fraud. Like that's a biggie.
Speaker 4:Oh, that is huge.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it gives you the real big picture on every client file before you've even started the work, right?
Speaker 4:And I've heard of some very savvy accountants that are using it to help price their fixed fee arrangements, because they're effectively scanning their file, checking data quality, so they can scope it before they price it. So they're not finding themselves in a shit ton of trouble because they've got the wrong data.
Speaker 3:Oh, for sure, for sure. So sign up for a free trial of expert today and let their AI do their heavy lifting on all your client files.
Speaker 4:Get amongst the friends, you know, when you find a piece of software that just happens to do a lot more than you expected it to do, and then, as you delve deeper and deeper and deeper into it, you realize, holy moly, there is so much that I can do here. Well, good friends of the podcast, patreon are one of those pieces of technology that I am constantly amazed by whenever we spend time within there. They can do a whole bunch of stuff like data capturing and pre-accounting, ap automation, approval workflows, fx and multi-currency, business accounts, corporate cards and expenses, group batch and partial payments, payroll reimbursements, payroll payments and a whole bunch of other incredible stuff, all within the one platform. Now, patreon does connect to all of the great accounting software out there and builds a whole bunch of finance automation to ensure that you are efficiently managing your cashflow, your spend and your expenses, as well as having transparency and approval processes in place. So the right things happen at the right time. So when you go, check them out, patreon P-A-Y-T-R-O-N dot com.
Speaker 2:And I think there's also, like you know, zero practice manager is a really good example of this. As in zero practice manager, it's a weird API in so far as it's open but it's also closed. So, for example, like the tax component, very closed, very, very closed. Zero holds the key to that one very close to their heart, so to speak, for good reason. It's filled with, it's packed with, sensitive information, so they need to be very specific in who and what is allowed to connect to that component of it. Zero practice manager is a little bit more open, but the API is not a fabulous API, as anyone who tries to connect with it actually understands. But then there's also the other flip side which needs to be considered is when you do connect to another app, there are different impact points.
Speaker 2:So what is it when you call, like calls to the apps? Is that what it's called Jack? So like if you try and ping the app for the information? Basically so if I'm in one app and I'm trying to retrieve information, so I'm trying to get contact names and addresses, for example, you know app number one has to ping app number two to pull that information from it, basically right. So there is I guess there's lots of noise and traffic going on, so the app number two has to be mindful of how much traffic is actually going to that app and therefore, when somebody is actually in their app, is that going to impact the usability of it? So there's lots of things to consider around how the integration actually works and the impact to that. So I know Zero Practice Manager and FYI those two apps are very heavily reliant on each other, so I don't know if you can speak to that one a little bit more, jack, just in relation to how that kind of works.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I don't know the ins and outs of the details of how it works, but 100%, there are API limits too, so there's certain things that you just can't.
Speaker 1:You can't sync every single second of every single day. So you know, you might go to a page and be like, oh, it's out of date again, but you have to hit the sync button yourself. You're like, why isn't this automatic? It's like if we're doing it every minute or every second, then we're absolutely going to blow up our limits. You know a lot of the apps behind the scenes will say look, you actually pay us per 10,000 API calls or something like that there's, you know, sometimes there's fees and costs to this stuff because their system is also involved. And so you've got to be smart about how you build your own software so you don't you don't breach those limits or you work around them or you find smarter ways to sync data and do that. I mean, yeah, I can't speak to how exactly it worked at FYI, but yeah, absolutely there's challenges and things like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you've answered the question. I think there is like there are so many more boxes that need to be ticked. Though, when you're talking about an integration like so many more boxes around, will the data actually be like connected? Like, does it actually connect cleanly? Does it add any value? Does you know, does it add value to the actual client base to have that integration? Just because a couple of or a handful of people want that integration? Does it actually add value?
Speaker 2:And one of the ones that's out there at the moment is the integration, like you know, between Carbon and Zero Practice Manager, and this is when we're if we look at that like, this is when we talk about some integrations are deep and you get a lot of information that's pushed and pulled between the two applications. And then there are some integrations that are probably a bit more light touch, and the Carbon and Zero One, for example, is quite light touch, and I'm, you know we've spoken about this on other episodes before and I'm phenomenally happy and grateful that they're finally talking to each other. It makes life way easier. But I'll also preface it and say you know, maybe a bit controversially the integration between Zero and Carbon. At the moment it's not as deep as what we all had hoped it would be. It just connects a contact name to each other, so you might have a single source of truth with client and contact information, but there isn't a further or deeper integration there, and that's, I guess. I think that's where frustrations come into it, sometimes from users.
Speaker 1:No, I think that's a really important call out, because, once you know, I think there's there's a component of integrations that's a marketing activity, which is to say, hey, let's go to the world and say we now talk to each other and the two brands go out. You see the, the brands together, and you think, wow, awesome, amazing, now I can sign up for those products because I've been waiting for them to talk. You sign up just to find out that the integration is minimal, as you've kind of alluded to. So I think, as users, we need to hold our startups accountable to that and say, like, hang on a minute, I'm not, I'm going to properly trial your software and make sure that that integration actually does something valuable for me, as you've kind of said as well. You know, you, let's go beyond surface level here. Let's actually add value when we build an integration, and I think some apps do that really well and others not so well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, like you know, if I'm being, if I'm being completely blunt and, as I said, controversial about it at the moment, I think the integration between carbon and zero is actually crap. It doesn't really do much. It doesn't actually really enhance anything on a day to day basis from an operational standpoint. Having said that, though, there are a lot of people out there that are using it that actually find that integration quite valuable, so it's also subjective, do you know what I mean? Like it's very subjective in the viewpoint as to how that integration works, and I think that's that's where the likes of, I guess, you and I come into play, jack, in terms of what we do, is that we have a really good understanding and depth of knowledge of exactly what does push and pull, like ignition and zero practice manager is another one which has great integration, but it's understanding around what actually does push and pull in terms of the information. So and there are there are a multitude of reasons as to why people use different apps based on those integrations around.
Speaker 2:You know what does push and pull, and I think that's why I guess, from a clarity street standpoint, when we talk about what our preferred app stack is, the main reason for that comes down to the amount of information that does push and pull those integrations between the apps. They are deep and they are wide and they're still in development and some of them could still be a little bit better than what they are, but for the most part they're pretty bloody good and they save a hell of a lot of time when it comes to, you know, clicks the least clicks the better, basically in terms of your operational stuff. So, yeah, I think it's the integration side of thing. It's an interesting one because they are a huge investment of time and effort to actually build as well. That's the other, that's the other component of it.
Speaker 1:And and I think that transition I'll swell into kind of maybe the second to last part of this conversation, because we're talking about zero, we're talking about ignition, we're talking about carbon, we're talking about these are some big companies now, yep. So you know, to me I think this is something that's on a lot of people's minds. You know, if you ask anyone at the moment, you know, do you feel zeros is innovative? Oh, it's not the same responses you got five years ago, and especially not to what you would have got ten years ago, because they're a big company. Now they are, they're obviously listed, they've got thousands of employees, they're all over the world. So, you know, there's a feeling of like I don't, they're not innovating enough, they're not moving forward enough. You know, like AI has happened and All I'm getting from zero is my bank feed telling me all the weirdest transaction Suggestions like yep, that doesn't feel like they are properly using AI. What's going on? Why is this happening? You know, on the other hand, carbon's done a relatively good job of adopting AI. I feel free to feel free to actually have
Speaker 1:experience there, but but they jumped on it. So I mean, one's bigger than the other. Zero is definitely a bigger company and I think I just wanted to kind of address that to kind of just let people know why. And you do slow down as a big tech company because, yeah, for a number of reasons. One is bureaucracy. I think you know you just have more and more layers of Management and things people have to. You know boxes to check off to get something done which is in a startup. You don't, and that's because there's a there's a much more developed risk Management kind of component to that business.
Speaker 1:At a low level, when you've got a handful of customers, you take a risk. It doesn't work. You jump on a call and speak to them and say, hey, sorry about that, we won't do that again. When you've got a million users and you do something, it doesn't work, well, you burn your brand, your reputation, with a lot of those they talk. The forums go wild like there's not much you can do to control it. So you have to be very careful about what actually gets done. The testing quality is like through the roof. The number of layers of QA and Quality assurance. You know it's it's 10, 10x or 100x on what you're getting in the early stage startup. So just like fundamentally harder to get something done, yeah.
Speaker 1:But then, once you've got yourself to the point of zero, where you're like, well, clearly We've nearly saturated the Australian, new Zealand market, it's like 80, 80 percent zero or something. Where where can we make more money? Because we have to. You know we're listed, we have to act on behalf of our shareholders. We'll make more money by taking our existing product to new markets. Then we will by making our product better for existing markets because we already have those markets. So the customers get to decide. If everyone says we're jumping ship to another startup or another software, then of course you're is going to have to reprioritize. Australia, new Zealand. Pity for us is there's not really any good competitors here, so our hands are tied. They don't really have any. Yes, correct. Yet we're all hopeful. I mean, I think we're all hopeful.
Speaker 2:We've been hopeful for the last 15 years.
Speaker 1:Come on good for the industry if there's competition. But I just think it's important to understand I'm not expecting, personally, really any major improvements, new features, anything too innovative from zero over the next, you know, even even five years, until there's some significant competitor to them.
Speaker 2:I 100% agree with you Yep, I'm with you in that from the zero world, but I guess the benefit of that, though, is to all of the other slightly smaller Apps out there that do connect into it.
Speaker 2:Well, that gives them the opportunity to innovate and get better and bigger and more features and things like that, and I think that that's what's going to end up happening, unless some of the incumbents or some of the other the other apps out there that are competitors to the world of zero, actually pull their socks up and come to the party Again. We can only hope and pray that that will happen one day, but yeah, it's. It is interesting, I think, the other thing around the big tech companies around new features. I don't think you tend to see as many of them, because they're more enhancements to the current features. There's no like huge. You know, as you say, there's no massive innovation, but they do. They do actually update and make new feature requests and bits and pieces, but I think, because he's so used to using the app, it's like oh, is that all? Is that all? It just doesn't feel as big as what it probably was.
Speaker 1:And I mean to get as big as zero has means they had a really good product that solved the problem for a market. And, and they were very focused and they knew their, their space. They said we are not doing forecasting and reporting, we have an ecosystem for that. We are not going to do x, we're not going to do y, we're going to let our ecosystem do that. And that focus, that ability not to get caught up in doing everything, allowed them to be the product they are today. So, as much as Like it's that focus and that, that that desire to stay true to who they were, where gl, you know, we're counting software and that's it, yeah, that enabled their growth. So, um, you know, and and you kind of shoot yourself in the foot every time you try and replace One of your ecosystem apps as well, because the rest of the ecosystem goes. Hang on a minute, what so?
Speaker 1:you know they're in it, they're in a tough spot. I I, you know still fans of zero, obviously, still the number one, I think, the preference to counting software. But I think, you know, as a fan of innovation, I'd love to see more, but I understand the challenges they have. There's also we haven't mentioned the legacy code. You know, if you've built something 15 years ago.
Speaker 1:It was probably in a language that's not optimized for today. So you know they can spend which. They have 12, 24 months having to review the old code, fix it, replace it with new code, and that's just so that we can now do some new stuff. You know 12, 12 months, 24 months of doing nothing externally. No new features for you behind the scenes. You know shitload of work, yeah, but but at the end of the day, yes, I understand what you're having to do. That doesn't make me, as a user, happy.
Speaker 2:Correct. That makes me impatient and annoyed.
Speaker 1:Exactly frustrated that nothing's happening exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I mean not much we can do about it, but I'm glad we've had the conversation. Yeah, I agree there isn't, but I guess why don't some features get built like what you know? Do you reckon there's anything Like what? Why don't they get built?
Speaker 1:I mean, I think this is a good place to kind of wrap up the conversation, which is why don't things get built and what can you do to maybe push a little bit harder and get what you want? So I think there's three main reasons why stuff doesn't get built. One it's not helping me win new users, because it's not expanding my market. It's not solving a problem for you know, another sub niche or something like that. Number two is it doesn't help to keep existing users.
Speaker 1:So if I'm building something that might make this a software you want to use for an extra two years, then that's worth investing in. But if it doesn't, then I don't see why. Like, if you're like I really want this new button and I say, well, if I don't build that, are you going to leave? You say no, well, how do I prioritize that? It's on the list, it's just not high priority, Then I think C or the third reason is because it's a strategic choice to stay within a certain scope, which is what I was kind of referring to with zero there which is like we are deliberately not going to build everything.
Speaker 1:So even if there's a nice little feature off to the side of our product that we could build, it's a distraction, taking us away from our main game. So I think that is a tough one sometimes to swallow, but it is what it is. That's a strategic choice by the business and sometimes we don't know what their strategy is from the outside, so it's hard to understand why they might make that decision. So that's why they don't get built. But I mean, what do you think people can do to maybe get stuff built?
Speaker 2:Be a squeaky wheel. Squeaky wheel gets the oil, I think the more, and I've done this multiple times. Right? So I have conversations with accountants on a regular basis and they're like, why doesn't it do that? And I'm like, I know, I agree. You know, the best place that you can do is go and put them on a forum or go and put a feature request in with the app, because the more people who request it, the more likely that they are to actually look at that feature request and go all right, we've got a thousand people now, you know, bang our doors about this. We've got to do something around this.
Speaker 2:I'm using one which is one that they've come across Ignition, for example. They're finally released the ability to pass on fees, to pass on the merchant fees to clients, and that came from years and years of people banging on the door, going please let us pass this on. And I know, you know, one of the founders had kind of a fundamental issue with that, which is, I agree, I don't necessarily think that you should pass on those fees, but you know, we're accountants, we like to, we don't want to pay for things that we don't need to, which I understand as well. But point is the squeaky wheel got the oil. The, you know the feature is now there, it's now been rolled out and it's amazing. So I think definitely the more people that you can rally around your idea to try and get that feature request put through, the better. That's one way. What else, jack? What have you got?
Speaker 1:I mean I think that the others from my end. One is getting on the ground floor. The earlier you are in the journey with an app, the there's. A benefit of being an early adopter is you, you actually do have influence over what they build. You know, not use solely, but you get. You do get to influence it. You can't get everything you want because they ultimately make the call, but the earlier you are.
Speaker 1:If you're on their product on day one, you will 100% get a say in what they build. If you're there on day 1000, you probably don't get any say. So I think that's one. Two is be a beta tester. If you want to like, if you, if you want to be a beta tester, be a beta tester, put your hand up for it. This is kind of in that you know, still early stage, startup phase, where you know they're trying stuff, you can, you can have an impact around what, how they're shaping that feature, maybe less than what features. And then I I mean I think this is just generally good courtesy is don't, don't demand stuff.
Speaker 1:You know, because I think that I think in a weird way that probably just gets people off.
Speaker 4:You know this is annoying there you go.
Speaker 1:So we can't be squeaky, we can't be quiet, don't just be quiet, but if, if, no, no, just don't be too annoying as a squeaky, like be valuable about it.
Speaker 2:Talk yeah, okay, I agree, I agree with that.
Speaker 1:Be valuable, but don't just be like you suck for not doing this. Be like this is why I need this. Yeah, this is why you will lose me as a customer if you don't and give them the chance Like it's a. You know it's a relationship, you and your startups. You know tech companies. They're like your tech stack is like a team member, so you know you work with them, not against them. I guess you know, don't, don't butt heads too much, but I think, yeah, I think there's a way to be a squeaky wheel and do it in a in a way that's beneficial for both.
Speaker 2:Sorry, I should have prepped. We've talked about this and we need it.
Speaker 3:We need to, we need to wrap up.
Speaker 2:So, one take away. Do we have to? I love this topic. I don't want to wrap up on this topic. I could talk about this topic for ages. I think my biggest takeaway from this is just understanding that you are being heard. Don't feel like you're not being heard. It's just that your voice, among all the different facets that come to the decision making process of whether a feature request or an integration is built, there are so many things to consider. So your voice is being heard. Just don't feel like you're being ignored. Yeah, that's, that's my takeaway. What's yours?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I love that, and mine is more of a call out for startups that are out there, which is to say, be transparent. You know, when someone requests something, don't pretend you're going to build it. If you're not going to build it, let them know where your wheelhouse begins and ends and allow them to go off and find other products to solve those problems If they're not problems you're intending to solve anytime soon. So I think that, for me, just transparency with your customers is is is critical. But, yeah, great conversation.
Speaker 2:Amy loved it. Thanks so much. Jack was great chatting, as always Cool. See ya, see ya.
Speaker 3:Hey team. It's Ellie and Andrew from all Aussie accounting adventures here. I hope you really enjoyed this episode with Amy and Jack. What did you think, andrew?
Speaker 4:Well stunning as always, the two have been brilliant minds and are brilliant communicators. So we hope that you have got some incredible learnings out of this episode and if you'd like to continue to follow us, make sure you check out our website. Find us on the socials You'll see accounting adventures, or look for all Aussie accounting adventures wherever good stuff can be found, whether that's conferences, whether that's websites, whether that's podcasts or social media.
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